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Old 06-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #7
pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
Default Re: Energy savings from increasing my A/C EER rating?

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 05:41:40 GMT, "Robert Thompson"
<rgthomps@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
><pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>news:h38pgvophidk4onj7b5lemhpe3emp99oom@4ax.com.. .
>> On 9 Jul 2003 13:50:33 -0700, cosolar@yahoo.com (Eric) wrote:
>>
>> >nick@acadia.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote in message

>news:<beh7d4$frc@acadia.ee.vill.edu>...
>> >> beachcooler <beachcooler@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Jim Caldwell wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Our current 220 volt 23,000 BTU/HR home air conditioner has an EER

>of 8.5,
>> >> >> and I would like to know what the energy savings would be if we

>replaced it
>> >> >> with a unit of the same BTU/HR but with a 9.6 EER. The current A/C

>makes our
>> >> >> power meter literally spin like a top every time the compressor

>kicks in. Do
>> >> >> you have to double the EER in order to halve the power consumption?
>> >>
>> >> Yes.
>> >>
>> >> >My exact calculations are at the office, but suffice it to say it is

>an
>> >> >exponential relationship.
>> >>
>> >> And the exponent is one.
>> >>
>> >> >http://www.energy-miser.com
>> >>
>> >> Are you really in the heating and cooling business? :-)
>> >>
>> >> Nick
>> >
>> >what are your general impressions of geothermal cooling systems, thermal

>experts?
>> >
>> >Eric

>>
>> I dig them :-)
>>

>
>That sounds like a Well Ground-ed opinion.
>


I stand in awe. Can't touch that one !



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~ ~>~~>~~


Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
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featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #8
davehinz@spamcop.net
 
Default Re: Energy savings from geothermal?

In alt.energy.homepower CM <CM@cm.not.really> wrote:

> If you want to use it for both summer cooling and winter heating, you
> must balance the thermal load to prevent the ground from icing up or
> overheating. Or, use separate areas of ground for heating and cooling.


So, are you saying that the ground where you're doing this can actually
get iced up from the heat exchange process?

Wouldn't that be a sure sign of an under-engineered loop? Heat transfer
spread over too small of an area, creating too large of a temperature
differential, and all that?

Dave Hinz

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Old 06-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #9
pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
Default Re: Energy savings from geothermal?

On 10 Jul 2003 12:07:45 GMT, davehinz@spamcop.net wrote:

>In alt.energy.homepower CM <CM@cm.not.really> wrote:
>
>> If you want to use it for both summer cooling and winter heating, you
>> must balance the thermal load to prevent the ground from icing up or
>> overheating.


Exactly what does that mean ,'balance the thermal load', and
how do you do it ? If it's winter, you're taking heat out, period.
If it's summer, you're putting heat in, period. Either your heat sink
area is sufficient to handle this, or it is not ( and thus undersized
).

> Or, use separate areas of ground for heating and cooling.


How exactly is that going to help anything ?

Your'e still dumping all the heat in one place, and taking all
your heat out from another.

Sorry, your comment makes no sense.

>So, are you saying that the ground where you're doing this can actually
>get iced up from the heat exchange process?
>
>Wouldn't that be a sure sign of an under-engineered loop? Heat transfer
>spread over too small of an area, creating too large of a temperature
>differential, and all that?


Or perhaps that it's cold out :-)

Obviously, yes. the loop is under-sized or miss-applied.



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~ ~>~~>~~


Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #10
davehinz@spamcop.net
 
Default Re: Energy savings from geothermal?

In alt.energy.homepower pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2003 12:07:45 GMT, davehinz@spamcop.net wrote:


>>> If you want to use it for both summer cooling and winter heating, you
>>> must balance the thermal load to prevent the ground from icing up or
>>> overheating.


>>Wouldn't that be a sure sign of an under-engineered loop? Heat transfer
>>spread over too small of an area, creating too large of a temperature
>>differential, and all that?


> Or perhaps that it's cold out :-)


Well, once you go down more than a few feet, does that matter all that
much?

> Obviously, yes. the loop is under-sized or miss-applied.


Man, I hated thermodynamics in college... but yeah, it seems so.

Dave

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Old 06-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #11
pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
Default Re: Energy savings from geothermal?

On 10 Jul 2003 13:14:11 -0700, cosolar@yahoo.com (Eric) wrote:

>"CM" <CM@CM.not.really> wrote in message news:<%T6Pa.38434$C83.3109912@newsread1.prod.itd.e arthlink.net>...
>> > what are your general impressions of geothermal cooling systems,
>> > thermal experts?

>>
>> Although it has considerable promise, there is hype and a lot of
>> misunderstanding on how it works.

>ok
>>
>> Some people get the notion that the ground is mystically maintained at
>> a constant temperature no matter what, when it is simply a matter of a
>> very large thermal mass and some insulation provided by the soil
>> above. It is a thermal reservoir. You put heat into the ground, the
>> temperature will go up. Draw heat out and the temperature will go
>> down.

>wow
>>
>> If you want to use it for cooling only, you must remove the excess
>> heat from the ground when it is cold - at night, or during winter.

>makes no sense.
>>
>> If you want to use it for heating only, you must replace the heat that
>> was removed by some means, or you will eventually end up with a
>> non-functioning permafrost ground.

>actually no.
>>
>> If you want to use it for both summer cooling and winter heating, you
>> must balance the thermal load to prevent the ground from icing up or
>> overheating. Or, use separate areas of ground for heating and cooling.

>um, you seem to have proved your first point quite nicely, but not
>answered my question. I think you have no knowledge of this topic at
>all.
>
>Eric
>>
>> CM


I like the part about makeing permafrost :-). I live in NC -
can I make some permafrost here ? :-)

"Hey, Mr. Neighbor ! Turn that ground source heat pump off,
you're turning the street into permafrost !' :-)

Geez.....



Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~~>~ ~>~~>~~


Coming soon - PMTherm version 2.0 !! http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm.htm
Free superheat charts for 38 Ref's online at http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/
My personal site is at http://www.pmilligan.net ,
featuring free HVAC, psychrometric, stock market, and other software
http://helpthecritters.com/ is my domain for helping critters
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:45 PM   #12
CM
 
Default Re: Energy savings from geothermal?

>> If you want to use it for both summer cooling and winter
>> heating, you must balance the thermal load to prevent the
>> ground from icing up or overheating. Or, use separate areas
>> of ground for heating and cooling.

>
> So, are you saying that the ground where you're doing this
> can actually get iced up from the heat exchange process?


One of the first attempts to use a ground source heat pump was
installed in Michigan. It worked fine the first winter, but conked out
midway through the 2nd winter, and when they dug down to investigate,
they found Permafrost.

> Wouldn't that be a sure sign of an under-engineered loop?
> Heat transfer spread over too small of an area, creating too
> large of a temperature differential, and all that?


The ground is a thermal reservoir, not an infinite source, and the
input/output must be balanced. Using a larger loop area would mean
tapping a larger reservoir. If unbalanced, it would take longer to
stop functioning, but eventually it would stop functioning.

Of course, if you dig really deep, you can tap a much larger thermal
reservoir of very hot rock that could provide heat for a few
centuries!

CM


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